Topics: Energy bill rebates; Labor’s energy shambles; government spending; higher income tax under Labor; revocation of dual citizenship of people who commit serious crimes; growth of the public service; migration; insurance

 

E&OE   

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Angus Taylor, welcome to the program.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Good to be with you, David.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So will the Coalition support this energy bill relief?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Yeah, we're not going to get in the way of it and the starting point here, though, is very clear, which is Labor has failed on delivering its promise of a $275 power price reduction in my electorate, Western Sydney, and the Minister for Energy’s electorate, we've indeed seen a miss of $1,300. $1,300 more than Australians expected to pay at the last election from Labor's promises. It is a complete and utter disaster. We're not going to stand in the way of Labor cleaning up their own mess. This is putting a band aid on a bullet wound. The solution here is to get a structural outcome, which is a reduction in underlying electricity prices, which has not been achieved, of course, it's gone the other way.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

You did vote against this sort of energy bill relief initially. So why now? Is it just because election is in the air?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Can I clarify that. We sought to split the bill. What we were against was the price caps, which have been a complete and utter failure. The gas and coal price caps, they have not worked. They were never going to work, and in fact, what they've done is they've made the situation worse because we're seeing supply drying up. That is a disaster for this country. Chris Bowen wants the gas and coal industries gone. He's on a renewables-only tirade. Renewables are an important part of the system, but we need balance, and the lack of balance of this Energy Minister has meant bills are going up, including in his own electorate, 1,300 bucks more than was promised by Labor.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Just on that point. Would you repeal those price caps on coal and gas?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well I won't announce our policy ahead of time, but we were against it from the start. That was very clear.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Sure. Then you’d get rid of it?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

We will have more to say about our shorter-term energy policy in the coming weeks, but what is very clear about it, and I think you can, you can, you can guess where we're going here. We need to get more gas into the system. We need to make sure …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

How do you do you do that?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, by getting Australian gas working for Australians. That's exactly what we did when we were in power. You know, Australians have noticed that energy prices were substantially lower when we were in power than they are now, David.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So when you say ‘Australian gas working for Australians’. Great line … not exporting as much … you're going to force the LNG exporters to keep more here?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, it's a good line because it's good policy. That's the point. And what it means is you've got to get more gas going into the system to put downward pressure on prices. Labor didn't bother with that because they don't like the gas industry. They don't think natural gas has a role to play so they said, we'll just impose plus price caps. Well, supply dries up, that's what happens and you see the investment moving overseas, and Australians don't get access to the affordable energy they want and deserve.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Sounds very much to me like you'll force those exporters to keep more gas here.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, we'll make sure that Australian gas is working for Australians. We'll make sure that there's more gas going into the system. That's what we did when we were last in power and David, the important thing about this is it worked, and the best indicator of future performance is past performance.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

I want to come back to the budget and spending. You're going to back this energy bill relief. You've backed a lot of the government's recent spending promises, particularly on the health front. Got some of them here. You can see all of these health announcements that the government's been making, whether it's the bulk billing incentive $8.5 billion. Public hospitals $1.7 billion, money for women's health, urgent care clinics, cheaper medicines. You're also going further, your own $500 million for psychology sessions. Can we afford all of this spending?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, we've opposed over $100 billion of Labor’s spending in this term of Parliament. Over $100 billion worth but not on essential services and we're not going to get in the way of Labor cleaning up their own mess, which is exactly what we're seeing here with energy bills. It's what we've seen with health with a sharp reduction in bulk billing. We're not going to get in the way of that, but we will, we will call out bad spending, wasteful spending, and we have done. Over $100 billion. The rapid growth of government, the Canberra-based public service growing by around 20%, 36,000 public servants, we'll get more numbers on that, no doubt this week. This is at a time when households are struggling to pay the bills, at a time when small businesses are going backwards. 29,000 insolvencies.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

I’ll come back to the public service, but just looking at your spending plans. How much is your tax deductible, business lunch policy going to cost taxpayers?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, as we've said many, many times, David, we'll put out our costings before the election. But what I can say is that in aggregate, in aggregate, our position will be stronger than Labor's and most importantly, we'll reestablish the fiscal guardrails. These are absolutely crucial. One of the first things Jim Chalmers …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

What does that mean? Can you explain what that means?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well one of the first things Jim Chalmers did when he came to power is threw out all the rules that had been in the budget. What are these rules? Things like making sure you grow the economy faster than spending, making sure you have a tax to GDP cap and what that does …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

The tax to GDP cap’s 23.9%. Tax has not been above that level. It's not forecast to be above that level. Would that save any money in the budget?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Tax has gone up for the average Australian by $3,500. Personal income tax by $3,500 for the average Australian. $7,000 for a double income couple since Labor came to power despite their version of the stage three tax cuts. Tax has been going up. Those fiscal guardrails, by the way, the reason they are so important is they discipline the government. They discipline the bureaucracy. They discipline colleagues, and Jim Chalmers has lost control.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So spending wouldn't go up beyond GDP.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

You would ensure, as we did when we were last in government, your economy grows faster than spending. Crucial to that is boost growth, make sure you've got a strong, growing economy. That's why we've said we'll up the productivity goals. Labor's given up the ghost on that, and make sure that the economy is growing faster than spending.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So spending on Defence, on NDIS, none of these things will rise faster than GDP?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

No the aggregate spending …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Overall?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

… because that's how you beat inflation. This is how you boost growth. It's how you make sure you're backing small businesses by giving them the space to succeed.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Coming back to your spending plans, we don't know the cost of the tax deductible lunch. We'll find out sometime in the campaign. What about the nuclear power plan? What will that cost?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, as we've said, it's going to cost Australians far less. A 44% …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

I’m asking what it’ll cost.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, but what ultimately matters is what Australians are going to pay.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Do you know?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

I mean, in energy … Well, I do know. It's a 44% reduction …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

No the cost.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, that's the costs. A 44% reduction in costs of the energy system under our plans …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

No, no, no. I’m asking … sorry about the confusion. I'm just asking what it's going to cost Australia to build nuclear power plants?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

44% less than the alternative.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Which is what?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

And this is the crucial point. Around, you know those numbers, they were put out … around $600 billion.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

What's your plan cost?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

So 44% less and let me explain this. The point about this, which is crucial, is that under Labor's plan, they'll be building thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of kilometres of power lines. They'll have to back up their renewables-only strategy, and that means the energy system is going to cost far more than it needs to, and they're over-building. All of that means is that the alternative we've put forward, which we've modelled, we've put out those costings …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

And what is cost?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

It’s 44% lower cost than Labor’s.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Can you tell us the dollars? Just so people can understand what the cost is.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, 44% less. Labor’s $600 billion in total for the system through to 2050 and ours is 44% less than that.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So $360 billion? Is it $360 billion?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Let’s be clear. That is not all paid for by government. Some of that, a significant portion of that will be private sector investment and should be private sector investment. So, David …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

But your plan’s taxpayer funded?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, no, a significant portion of it will be paid for by the private sector. I mean, the transmission lines. The transmission lines today …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

The nuclear plants, though?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Transmission lines today should be paid for by the private sector. They're not under Labor, by the way.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

That’s true.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

I mean, Labor has decided that they're going to use public funding for our transmission lines when we've long had a system in place where the private sector has incentives to invest in those transmission lines, and we even see in the last month that it is absolutely unnecessary for the public sector to be investing in those transmission lines. So we'll restrict government's role to what is absolutely the necessary …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

The nuclear plants.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Seven nuclear generators,

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Which will be $360 something billion

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Which will cost around under $20 billion each. We've been clear about that.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

And David, the important point about this is that can deliver over time the lower power prices Australians want, as in the short term, we drive supply into the system to make sure they get that relief on the energy bills, which is structural and permanent, rather than temporary.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

You've promised $3 billion to buy more F 35 fighter jets. Is that new money for Defence or are you going to cut another Defence program to pay for that?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, as I say, we'll put out our costings before the election, and we've already been clear about the F35s but this is a downpayment on making sure we've got the capability we need as a country at a time that is increasingly uncertain for Australians.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Will you lift Defence spending, though? Overall?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, let's see what the headroom is in the budget. I mean, we're all waiting for this budget. You want answers from me before I've actually seen the budget.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Well, you’re making promises. You’re making promises.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

We’re making promises we know we can afford, but we're going to see what's in the budget and how much headroom there is in the budget.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Right. So you haven't worked out yet, whether you’ll increase Defence spending?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

At the end of the day, we don't know what, what the situation is we're dealing with, with a Labor Government that has lost control of its spending, how much fiscal headroom there will be, and we're looking forward to seeing that this week. I hope there's a lot of transparency on that, David.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

The talk of the Coalition committing to 2.5% of GDP going to Defence, which would be, I think a $15 billion annual increase from where we are now. There's no decision on that yet?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, let's be clear, the best way to increase spending on Defence is to have a strong economy. The stronger the economy, whatever number you pick, the more the dollars are.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Sure.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

And this is why we are so focused on boosting growth, beating inflation, backing small business, fixing the housing supply in this country, delivering affordable, reliable energy that all Australians deserve.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Will you set any money aside for a referendum?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, David, we've been clear about this policy. That is a last resort but what we will focus on as a top priority is keeping Australians safe.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

But it's the only … if you want to change the constitution, you've got to have a referendum.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well it's long been Coalition policy. You'll remember the debate from 10 years ago that citizenship that is achieved through fraudulence or indeed terrorist acts from dual citizens, those people are not deserving of being citizens of this country. That was a decision we made 10 years ago. It remains Coalition policy, and we'll do what we, we’ll do what we have to, to make sure we can implement that policy. But any constitutional change would absolutely be a last resort.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

But would you set money aside for a referendum? They're not cheap.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, it's a last resort, and it's not part of our core plans right now.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So it’s not going to be …

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Let's be clear, we will do it as a break glass option because one thing we're not going to do, which this government has done, is be weak on national security issues and keeping Australians safe.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So coming back to the public service. Your colleague, Jane Hume said this morning on Sky News, you'd go back to the level of the public service that we had post COVID. That's on my reading of the budget papers, 173,500. So you would cut 36,000 positions.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, as I say, we don't know how many positions Labor has put in place. We'll find out more in the budget. The last number, the last number we had was 36,000. It's been growing more. We know that. It’s been growing at rapid rate.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So you’d cut 36,000 at least?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well as I say, let's see what's in the budget. But what we've been very clear about is we want to get back to where we were when we were last in government. That shouldn't be in areas of frontline services. It should be in the back-office areas. Labor has grown the size of the public service. Well, Labor has grown the size of the public service at a rapid rate, 20% so far. It may be more. We'll find out in the budget. There were black holes in their last budget on these costings. So we'll see what it looks like. But what I do know, David, is that despite the fact that the size of the Public Service has grown, customer service has gone backwards. I mean, we've seen, we've seen bulk billing rates fall from 88% to 77% despite a 40% increase in the size of the Department of Health. This is not, it is not …

 

DAVID SPEERS:

You’re using the COVID figures.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Yeah, but this is not, this is not working.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Just coming back to the public service. Would you also, if you're going to go back to that level, would you also go back to using 54,000 external labour workers?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

You know, David, Labor pretends that what they've done is switch one for the other. But let me tell you, government spending continues to grow at a rapid rate to the highest level we've seen for 50 years, as you just heard, so look, the fact of the matter is, their policies are not working in this area, the public service has not been able to deliver the outcomes we want to see in areas like health. We need a productive, effective public service, and we have some amazing people in our public service, but a bigger team is not always a better team, as I've learned over the course of my career. It needs to be an effective, productive team.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Will you cut foreign aid?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Look again, we'll put out our policies before the election in those areas and others.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Don’t you think people deserve to know the answers to some of these things?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

We've been clear. Well, we’ve been clear on $100 billion of spending that we're opposing, David, and you haven't asked any questions about any of those areas. Very clear, and we've opposed those in most cases, in votes in the parliament. There's no ambiguity here, and that is, by the way, I should say, that is not in areas of essential services for Australians. It's on programs that are not delivering for the Australian public, and it's as bigger step in fiscal prudence as any Opposition has taken since Malcolm Fraser in 1975 and we're not proposing to go back to that.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay, does that mean you'd get a surplus in the next term of Parliament?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, what we'll do is we'll make sure, over time, we're moving to structural balance, and that's the key here, which means growing the economy faster than spending. It's what we did when we were last in government, and it worked.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

I want to ask you about the migration figures. This has been a big focus for the Coalition. We saw during the week, the latest figures. We can show them here. Net Overseas Migration’s come off the peak that had hit of just over 550,000 people. Net Overseas Migration’s come down about a third from that peak. You said this time last year that you would reduce that by a further 25%. Is that still your plan?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, what you're missing in that chart is that that is way above what Labor forecast and they keep missing their forecasts. They keep missing their forecasts. We'll get a new set of forecasts out in the budget. What we've been clear about is we will reduce permanent migration by around 25%. We've given, we've given those numbers.

 

DAVID SPEERS:  

But what about Net Overseas Migration? That’s a big one. That’s what you said last …

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

I’ll just work through each of the pieces of it. So permanent migration, we've laid out where we're planning to go.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

But not how you’d do it.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, we'll set lower caps. I mean, it's simple, and that's how permanent migration works in this country. We'll get the humanitarian intake, which is amongst the most generous in the world, back to where it was when we were last in government and it's true that the international student numbers have broken all records, and we're getting to a position where at our G8 universities, our biggest universities, or our most prominent universities, that we're seeing international student numbers close to 50% and we think that's way above what's acceptable. So we'll look at the numbers that come out. What's clear is they keep moving and they keep moving up.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Well they're coming down now.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, versus the forecast, so they haven’t come down.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Okay. So your commitment to reduce that Net Overseas Migration by 25% is no longer a commitment for 25% reduction?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

We'll put out the numbers when we see the budget. But what you can be clear about, David, no ambiguity about this, is it will be lower under us, and we've already laid out how we'll achieve that.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

And will that hurt the economy?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, you know what? GDP per capita is the number that matters to Australians, and it's gone backwards for seven consecutive quarters under this government. The only thing driving the economy for the last two years has been Australians working more, and that is a recipe for a collapse in our standard of living, and we've seen the biggest collapse in history, unprecedented, unrivalled. No other peer country in the world where we've seen that collapse in standard of living.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

I've got to ask you about insurance too, because there's been some confusion about whether you would seek to break up insurance companies in government. A couple of weeks ago, you said, ‘no, we've been clear about that.’ Peter Dutton keeps talking about it. What's the, what's the position?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well insurance premiums have gone up too much for Australians, and we've already announced important policies that will make a difference to that, for instance, making sure that our prudential regulator isn't over-regulating our insurers so they have to raise premiums more than they need to, making sure that the construction sector is efficient in this country, and with the CFMEU, we've seen a construction sector that has been at the beckon of a union with deep links to the criminal underworld.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So what’s the answer to the question, though, will you break up insurance companies?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Well, we've said again that we're prepared to take action where there's clear evidence of an abuse of market power, or there's concerns about abuse of market power or anti-competitive conduct. We've taken action. When we were in government, we took action against the energy companies on this. More recently, I've helped to draft legislation, which is sitting in the parliament now that’ll take action on supermarkets and hardware and we're prepared to act if we see, if we see evidence of abuse of market power and anti-competitive behaviour.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

So when you said a couple of weeks ago, no, it's now maybe?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

No. We've been clear about it all along, which is, if we see abuse of market power, if we see anti-competitive conduct …

 

DAVID SPEERS:  

You’ll break them up.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

… and Australians and Australians are clearly suffering as a result of that, and divestiture can play a role in helping to address that, we will act. We have acted in the past, and we'll act in the future.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

Final one, Angus Taylor, should the Coalition not get there at this election, we heard Jim Chalmers asked this morning about the leadership. What about you? Would you seek the leadership?

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

You know, David, I am absolutely focused on one thing and one thing only now, which is getting rid of a bad Labor government that has meant that Australians are worse off than they were three years ago. They can't afford another three years of that. That is my absolute and utter focus because Australians need better than what they've got under Labor.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

That's not a no.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

David, right now I'm focused on winning this election and a majority Coalition Government, because we cannot afford either a Labor majority or a Teals/Green Labor Coalition, which would be an absolute and utter disaster.

 

DAVID SPEERS:

All right. Angus Taylor, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:

Good to be with you.

 

ENDS.