Topics: Nuclear energy 

 

E&OE   

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 

There's been a huge national response to the Coalition unveiling its nuclear policy yesterday, announcing seven nuclear power plant locations across the country, and a promise to build the first reactor between 2035 and 2037. But it's so far not revealed how much it will cost, only that taxpayers will be footing the bill, and that the move will make energy bills for households cheaper. But of course, there are so many questions. So, I'm going to ask them of Angus Taylor, the Shadow Treasurer who joins me in the studio, my favourite place to speak to somebody. Welcome to the program. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Good to be with you. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

It’s better than the phone, isn’t it? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

It is better than the phone, much better than the phone. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Government ownership is a major change, with little rationale from a Liberal Party that traditionally, you would expect to favour the market. They're the principles of the liberal party. Why have you shifted on this? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, government ownership in certain circumstances is not new for the Liberal Party, mind you, Robert Menzies used government ownership to get energy facilities going in the 1950s and we think there's an appropriate time and place for that. We would expect any generator built by the government to deliver a return on investment, so it can be off budget. And of course, we do that now. We do that with Australia Post, we do that with the NBN, we do that with Snowy and we do that with Clean Energy Finance Corporation and others. So, it's not an atypical approach. And in many countries around the world, we've seen government ownership, whether it's in South Korea, or we’ve seen it in Europe as well so... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Let me pick you up on return for investment. You haven't provided the costings. And of course that is contentious, that decision not to yet provide them. When will you get a return on investment?  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, can I just say, you know, the Labor Party wants us to announce the timeline of all of our policies on their timeline. We're not going to do that. We're going to do this in a mature way. These are important, PK, these are important discussions to have. And there needs to be a maturity about them.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

There does. I couldn’t agree more.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

And I think it needs to be respectful to the communities and we named those communities yesterday. And that's a really important announcement to make. We'll make announcements on the costings and the economics in due course, as we should. But you know, I make the point, that when you look at jurisdictions in locations where there is significant nuclear energy, we have seen much lower power prices… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay, but I want to return you to my main question, which is when will you see a return on investment. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, we’ll see a return on investment, as with any investment, in an appropriate time frame... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 

What’s that... 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 

Look I'm not going to give you the economic details, I know you're really going to be going... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Well, you are the Shadow Treasurer. I am pleased because of that role, I mean, I can talk about the economics here. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

But the announcement yesterday was about the locations PK, and this is important. We've got to go through this in a sensible, mature and methodical way. That is how you show I think, respect to the Australian people, to those communities. And this is a big, this is a big decision. This is a major change in direction for our energy system, one that I think is really needed right now when we've got 90% of our baseload generation, which will be gone in 2035. And we don't have a pathway to resolve that right now. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So, let's talk about, I think it is an unusual decision not to provide how much it will cost.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, we’re not saying we’re not... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

How do we have a mature conversation without knowing the cost? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

PK, we can sit here all day with you trying to drag an announcement... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But just explain to me, I’ll be honest I do not get why you haven’t provided the cost. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 

Well, we will I mean. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

When? Before the election? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

You know, PK, I'm not going to give you the timelines today. What I am going to say… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

That question is reasonable. Will it be before the election? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Of course, of course. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So, before the election, we will know exactly how much it will cost? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

We will announce all of our costings before the election at an appropriate timeframe. And we will announce our policies before the election. We haven't seen that with his current Labor Government, I have to say, PK, but that is what we will do. But the important point today is that we made this announcement about these locations. It's big. It's important. Australians need to have a mature discussion about nuclear, we've been having a discussion about nuclear in different contexts over the last couple of years. And this is building on that. And we seek to do this from Opposition in a considered way. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But given it is so big and it will be expensive to get this off the ground. And you talk about a return on investment. You don't expect a return on investment for a long period of time, right?  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

We expect the return on investment like any other investment. I've been around these sorts of investments all of my career. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 

You think you can get it from the start? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 

We can get a return on investment, which is appropriate for those assets, and we'll have more on the costings that will come out at an appropriate time. That means it will be, like Australia Post, off budget. Now, the Treasurer got terribly confused about this yesterday, he doesn't understand the difference between government ownership and subsidies. And perhaps he has something to reveal to the Australian people that he doesn't expect returns on investment from government business enterprises anymore. But that's how traditionally it has worked in this country. And that's how we will approach it. And the crucial point here is 90% of our baseload generation going by 2035, PK, it is an appropriate discussion to have. I firmly believe we need to have every technology option on the table here, we've got a difficult problem to get to net-zero. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

You’ve also said you don't want to pick winners, right? But you've just picked a winner. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, I was just explaining, when you interrupted a moment ago, that the key here is to have every option on the table. This is not about nuclear only, just as we don't think there should be a strategy which is renewables only. It's about a balance. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But inevitably it downgrades renewables. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Energy systems that are successful around the world historically, and looking forward no doubt, are energy systems that have a balance across a range of different technologies. We've allowed this debate in the country to become a debate about either or. We have debates where everyone, just let me finish this, it’s really important. Everyone picks their favourite technology, and they say that is the answer to everything. The answer here is all of the above. This is hugely important, whether it's renewables, whether it's storage through hydro. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So, what percentage of the market will it take? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, again, the costings and the detail on that will be out before the next election, as I've said, as Ted O'Brien has said, on multiple occasions today, and yesterday was about the announcement of the locations.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay. With respect... 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

PK which you have been asking for some time, you have that now. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

I ask everything! 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR: 

I was hoping we were going to be able to talk about that today! 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS: 

The locations? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

It’s important for those… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay, well let’s, you want to go there, and I will in a minute. But really important question, I reckon, which is the cost of energy, right? That's why you tell us that you want to do this.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

It's one reason. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Given it takes so long to get these things up and running, level with us. On your premise, even if you think it'll be cheaper, you won't see cheaper energy prices for at least 10 years? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

We need a range of different pieces to this. So, there's the nuclear piece, which is very important as we approach Net Zero 2050. This is crucial to achieving that and we think this needs to be a central platform. It's one part of it, it's not the whole thing. In the shorter term, we have been consistently saying, I've been saying for many, many years, PK, we need to have a balance of renewables and gas coming into the system. That's a balance which other countries are pursuing. Again, we've got ourselves into an immature debate, where you say, oh well, it's all got to be renewables. We can't have any gas. Here in Victoria, for instance, there is an anti-gas mindset. Finally, we've seen the Labor Party getting religion on that… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay but for this to deliver cheaper prices for households and for businesses, of course, it won't, they won't see any of that for many years, right? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

People will see lower prices with a Coalition energy strategy, which will include this and many other aspects... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But when? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well as I say the costings, and the economics will be out before the election. But I will make this point... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So you can’t...it will be at least a decade until people see any cheaper prices, if your ultimate premise, if it holds up. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Let's not confuse two different things. The timeframes here, we've been very clear about 2035 to 2037 to get started, and then beyond that through to 2050, to get to the net zero. And an important objective here is to get emissions down. And I note that right now, emissions have been going up, not down, under this current government. We think that we can do that in a way which is consistent with affordable, reliable electricity. And that means having the full range of technologies available. There's also shorter-term strategies, and when I was energy minister, we did, we did emphasise the importance of gas, and we did see reductions in electricity prices. And we did see reductions in emissions, PK. That is not what we're seeing currently under this government that promised a $275 reduction. It hasn't occurred. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But you can’t be clear about how this will make people's bills cheaper. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, our energy policy will, and is, absolutely focused on driving down prices as we did in government. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But you’re relying on us trusting you, not providing any evidence. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

And this is the important point. And that is because of a range of technologies, not one. Nuclear needs to be part of that mix. You need to have every horse in this race. This is a hard race to win. We want to have every horse in the race, nuclear is an important one, gas is an important one, renewables will continue to play a role. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But they will play a smaller role, won't they?  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, they'll play a really important role as they have been.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

I need to get you on this! Will it be a downgraded role inevitably? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

You know PK, everyone wants to sort of say there's one technology, that’s the answer to everything. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

No, I'm not at all. I'm just wondering what the mix will be. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

It's a balance of technologies. And right now, what is clear is Chris Bowen’s strategy is not getting us to where we need to go. The outcomes...   

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But just on the actual question, if I can return you to the question, renewables will be a smaller part as a result of this policy? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

They will be an important part of it. And particularly... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Important does not talk about size.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

And there's also different parts of renewables. I mean, household solar, is.. we've seen three gigawatts or more... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

I'm talking about large scale renewables.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, I was, you were talking about renewables a moment ago.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Large scale renewables. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

So let me answer the question on renewables, because I think it's an important one. Household solar will continue to play a hugely important role. Three gigawatts of capacity. Large scale, utility renewables will continue to play a role. Look, at the end of day, we've got to have a mix here. And if you have a mix, the experience from other countries is you do get a more affordable, more reliable system, and you are able to reduce emissions. Now, when you see people saying no, no, we've got to exclude this one and that one and every other one, it's harder. It's really, that's just common sense I would have said, PK, and it's the common sense we want to see in a mature debate about the energy system in this country. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

The Smart Energy Council, who runs the Port Augusta site say they've not received a call from the Liberal Party. You said you want to talk about sites, why haven't you even consulted them?  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, we’ll talk to the community. You know, lobbyists and interest groups, are a part of the discussion, of course they are, but the focus here... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Can you confirm they haven’t been contacted? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, Ted O'Brien is the one you ask that question to, not me, so... 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

But the important point here is we are beginning that engagement with communities. And that was what yesterday's announcement was about. It needs to be a mature one, we asked people to be mature about it. And sadly, we’ve seen a Labor Party that has just done as it loves to do, which is turning into Opposition mode. They're acting more like an Opposition than a government right now, to be honest, and we're the ones leading the agenda in this country. And we need to, because there does need to be leadership in energy as there needs to be on the economy as there needs to be on national security. And that's what we will continue to do every day between now and the next election.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Okay. Perin Davey is the Deputy Nationals Leader, yesterday said that if communities were opposed, you know, they didn't want it in their backyard, they have to live next to these things, that that would be respected. 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, we will show respect to communities, and I think this is hugely important that there be appropriate engagement with communities. We've allowed long timelines for that, two and a half years or more, to have those discussions. It's not going to be a Chris Bowen-like consultation. And I've seen these where it goes for a couple of months. And then he rolls over the top of the community without having the appropriate discussion along the way. So that's been a very, very deliberate part of our design here to allow time for those discussions. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So let me just say, so that happens, and I'm just making it up, but Port Augusta says, or Latrobe Valley says nup, we're pretty certain we don't want it. What do you then? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Just as I knew you would want me to announce policies between now and the next election today, future policies today, you're now going to want me to go through a whole lot of hypotheticals. And I'm not going to go through the hypotheticals.  

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

That’s the most clear, that is binary. They say no, what do you do? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, can I say that we have allowed two and a half years for discussion and consultation. We've also seen in other jurisdictions around the world, that when an appropriate discussion takes place, particularly in communities where there are pre-existing generators, which is our focus here, this is a very, very important part of the strategy and approach here. Then support does build over time and that's been an experience all around the world. We've deliberately picked these locations because much of the infrastructure is already there, the transmission infrastructure, the water infrastructure, and other parts of it. That reduces cost, it makes it faster. But importantly, it also means you've got communities that understand energy systems, that understand the energy system that have… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

But if they, after that consultation say, we don't want it, will you respect that? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Well, you know, I'm not going to get into hypotheticals what I am going to say is… 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Will you push ahead even though they’ve said no?  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

I'm not going to get into hypotheticals other than to say we will have appropriate consultation and we think that these are good sites to work through with the communities. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

So is the consultation just cosmetic then if you're not going to listen to what they say? 

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

No, I mean, of course you listen and there are many things you can do in a local community to deliver well to that local community. We know there's enormous opportunity here to take these sites and turn them into much broader industrial job creating sites. We see enormous demand, whether it's in heavy, energy intensive industry, or in data centres, to actually use these sites as a basis for job creation. We know that around 75% of the workers in an existing coal fired generator can be transitioned over to a new low emission, zero emission nuclear generator. I mean, all of these things are an important part of the consultation, PK, and getting ahead of that is not appropriate. This is why I say this has got to be a mature debate and sadly, we're not seeing that maturity coming from the Labor Party. 

 

PATRICIA KARVELAS:  

Angus Taylor, thanks for coming in.  

 

ANGUS TAYLOR:  

Good on you. 

 

 

ENDS.